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Feb. 9th, 2009 @ 07:40 pm History of Sumerian Reconstructionism

I have a bit of a conundrum facing me. A person I am having a huge debate with online is claiming that a person who goes by the name of Ellen Sorenson was the first known Reconstructionist of the Phoenician / Canaanite path. And that this person basically was a prophetess of the Goddess that according to Ellen (via this person I am debating with) was referred to as Ashteroth. The problem I am having is that I know for a fact that the Goddess was not known as Ashteroth outside of the Biblical accounts in ancient times. So either this person wasn't a very good prophetess or they didn't do their research into the origin of the Goddess.

The major problem I am having is that this person is also claiming that there was an elderly prophetess of this Goddess at the same time (in the early to late 1980's) who lived in India, and that this Ellen Sorenson was to be the Priestess' successor in the world.

The real issue is that this man whom I am debating with is claiming that Ellen was trying to create a power base via sexual ritual abuse and magical sexual ritual abuse as well as through the use of Drugs. He is also claiming that he was able to thwart their plans using the Power of the Christian God the way that the prophet who thwarted Jezebel in the Bible did against Jezebel. The problem I have is I always assumed the story of Jezebel was merely a propaganda peice agains the Canaanites.

Additionally I am assuming that you guys are either familiar with this story if it is true, or are capable of debunking it if it is not true, either way, I would be greatly appreciative of any help you can provide to me :D

Just thought I would Cross post this for alternative view points...
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cathal83:
From:openhands
Date:February 10th, 2009 03:26 am (UTC)
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*raises hand* I have a question. Two, actually. (I did a quick Google search and found this debate on a myspace forum.)

1. If this guy is making weird ass claims, then isn't it up to him to back them up with reliable sources or evidence of some kind? Why do the leg work for him? Every time he makes a claim, ask for an academic source. I doubt he can provide one. When he sidesteps or gives you bible quotes, others who are reading the debate can make up their own minds about the quality of his argument.

2. He sounds like your typical fundie Christian with a literal interpretation and shallow understanding of the bible. If it were me, I wouldn't waste my time. He's convinced that he's right and he's probably enjoying the attention immensely.

Also, from what I've read Jezebel may have existed by we don't know for sure. There was some fuss over a jewelry piece a few months back that some folks were claiming was hers, but the evidence was lacking. What we do know is that the Israelite prophets were heavy on the Baalism polemic in parts of the OT. Up until the Babylonian exile they had a lot of trouble keeping their people from straying to foreign gods. Jezebel would not have been a popular consort in the eyes of the prophets, however she may have been viewed by other Israelites.
From:openhands
Date:February 10th, 2009 03:47 am (UTC)

Small Correction

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Sorry, it wasn't a jewelry piece that made the news a while back, it was a seal. There was some discussion of the article on the Canaanite paganism yahoo group list when a link was posted: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21693714/

I don't have any books on Cananite/Israelite topics that mention Jezebel except in passing. For information on Baalism polemic and assimiliation of Canaanite deities though, _The Early History of God_ by Mark Smith has some good information.
From:cathal83
Date:February 10th, 2009 04:03 am (UTC)
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1. Yes, it is up to him to provide background, and we have tried to get him to do so. He has tried to provide some of the information. However at this point it has been lacking. So far we are at the point where we have all but disproven this guys claims simply by coming to the point where we have researched the names he has provided on the military database and found no similar names in the state or time period he claims these events occurred. However I wanted to see what the Pagan Community had to say about this issue as it may have another perspective about this that I may have missed and may actually be able to provide some insight into the issue.

2. And yes, if the guy you found on myspace was named Adam, then that is the correct guy. He is actually far different than your typical run of the mill fundamentalist as he tends to use sources from extra-canonical biblical accounts to back up his claims, which most biblical fundamentalists would consider heresy bar none. So while he is definitely cut from the same cloth as a fundamentalist when it comes to his behavior, he is also cut from the same cloth as many of the more unique branches of Christianity as well.

As for the information about Jezebel, I am most certainly going to have to read that for more information, thanks for the link :D
From:openhands
Date:February 10th, 2009 04:39 am (UTC)
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>>>However I wanted to see what the Pagan Community had to say about this issue as it may have another perspective about this that I may have missed and may actually be able to provide some insight into the issue.<<<

Hm, have you tried asking over at the Canaanite paganism yahoo group? There are a couple of members there who have been involved in the religion since the 80s IIRC. If anyone has heard about these prophets, it would probably be them.

I discussed this topic with a former Canaanite recon via email a few years back. The discussion touched on what was happening in previous decades with neo-pagans and the term Canaanite, but I don't have any sources beyond the email so it wouldn't be of any help to you, unfortunately. :/

Anyway, if his ideas about this are anything like his "facts" about child sacrifice at Carthage, then I would just smile, nod my head and back away slowly. He may get creative with his sources now and again, but the style of debate is the same. Best of luck with your efforts.
From:cathal83
Date:February 10th, 2009 04:42 am (UTC)
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um... I don't suppose you have the URL for the Yahoo group? Cause I am not sure I know where it happens to be.
From:openhands
Date:February 10th, 2009 05:38 pm (UTC)
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groups.yahoo.com/group/canaanitepaganism
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From:mdehners
Date:February 10th, 2009 03:07 pm (UTC)
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I guess I'm just gettin old;>. I used to be a big fan of Proving Eeejits Eejits but nowadays I'm beginning to think folks just need to work it out for themselves. This is partly due to the fact that for the last couple of decades others have been doing all the critical thinking for folks and those abilities in the average alt-religion person today are pretty weak. I mean, anyone who would actually go to a decent library and check out the stacks could tell this man is full of Fertilizer(and not in a good way;>)...
Truth,
Pat


“You can believe anything you want. The universe is not obligated to keep a straight face.”-Solomon Short